children are teaching us ultimately only hurts ourselves. Suzanne Szames Interim Coordinator Southern California Size Acceptance Coalition POB 500293 San Diego, CA  92150-0293 (619)496-3317 This e-mail address is being protected from spam bots, you need JavaScript enabled to view it http://www.alumni.caltech.edu/~hanshorn/coalition/ Diane Johnston     This e-mail address is being protected from spam bots, you need JavaScript enabled to view it AKA: This e-mail address is being protected from spam bots, you need JavaScript enabled to view it Who put the Stop Payment on my reality check!!!

being liked. And nothing that says you can't be liked even if you don't meet the impossible standards of beauty!  If we can love people for who they are, why does it matter what they look like?  That was my point. Diane Johnston     This e-mail address is being protected from spam bots, you need JavaScript enabled to view it AKA: This e-mail address is being protected from spam bots, you need JavaScript enabled to view it Who put the Stop Payment on my reality check!!!

In article <5047u8$ This e-mail address is being protected from spam bots, you need JavaScript enabled to view it , You sort of got the point and sort of missed it too.  The point was that Thin shouldn't be the standard of beauty. Well, if not thin, then what? Fat is not the answer either. I may never look like any of the male supermodels, but when I see them I do think about putting down that slice of pizza, switching to Diet Coke, etc..so it's not all bad. When I see them, it makes me at least keep trying. And sometimes I fail. The wish to be thin is'nt bad. And trying is'nt wrong either. It's the failure and the inability to handle the failure that causes either suicide or eating disorders. Michael

Okay, everything in the post was good stuff. But it does'nt change anything in my mind. Everyday I see an image of a guy that's in better shape. That's better looking. That dresses better. Blah blah blah. I can't even open my magazines without seeing Joel West or Marcus Shenkenberg prancing around butt nekked in a Calvin Klein ad. But do I kill myself? No. The story of the 12 year old killing himself is definitely tragic. But i'd be willing to bet that there were other forces at work. Other factors that caused him to kill himself. He obviously needed positive reinforcements at home. Looks like he did'nt get it. I guess what i'm trying to say is that the models(female and male) do represent an ideal or standard that many strive to attain. They've set the standards. And I don't see anything wrong with it. Those models work hard on their body and looks and I don't think we should begrudge them for looking good,  or for setting the standard of beauty and fitness. Balance is the key. Loving and liking people for who they are is what is really important. But there's nothing that says you can't look good while being liked. Michael

I guess what i'm trying to say is that the models(female and male) do represent an ideal or standard that many strive to attain. They've set the standards. And I don't see anything wrong with it. Oh no, there is ALOT wrong with it. The figures that most models have is not like that of the average woman. Their body fat is too low. If a woman (or anyone) who is not naturally very thin, like most of those models, attempts to attain that 'ideal', she may very well damage her body, mind, and spirit. Believe me...I've been there, done that, got the t-shirt. Standards change. You ever seen the old Greek and Roman sculptures of women? Those are true healthy female bodies. You know what else really gets on my nerves?? I'm sure some of you have seen this commercial. Its a Jenny Craig commercial with a woman named Cynthia or Cindy who can't get in her jeans. That woman is NOT fat! Oooh, it burns me up how they keep reinforcing this ignorant and idiotic standard that a woman has to look like a rail to be beautiful. I've seen too many of those before/after commercials where, granted the women look good afterwards, but they looked FINE before, were NOT fat and did NOT need to radically lose weight. I just wish everyone who keeps advocating fitness over fatness could for just one week live the life of a woman who has struggled with anorexia or bulimia. THen maybe they'd get the right perspective.

| In article <5047u8$ This e-mail address is being protected from spam bots, you need JavaScript enabled to view it , | You sort of got the point and sort of missed it too.  The point was | that Thin shouldn't be the standard of beauty. | | Well, if not thin, then what? Healthy as possible, happy as possible, ... | It's the failure and the inability to handle the failure that | causes either suicide or eating disorders. Actually I believe it is likely much more a question of tying the way you look (or don't) with your own identity, esteem, sense of well-being, etc.  One needs to be happy with oneself, including having whatever goals or motivation one might need or have or provide for oneself.  But, if one is working from some arbitrary static physical ideal of so-called perfection, ....  one is in trouble.  There is no one right way to look.  Thin doesn't exist outside of a context.  It's all on a continuum & what's a right range for one person could be completely wrong for another person.  Someone was saying that if you look good you feel good, or something like that & that's a crock.  You could look like a million dollars & feel like utter shit.  But, if you get to a point where you feel good about yourself, that will begin to show up on the outside. Our big problem with physical ideals as presented by the media and advertisers is that we are bombarded with a narrow range of choices. Diversity of physical types before us is nothing but good, good, good. _____________________________________________ DonnaB-CoHost, Delphi CF179, Soap Opera Forum